bogglement

[egypturnash]

So I'm filling out this art store job application. You know, go there workdays, take turns behind the sales counter, help customers buy the right materials, all that stuff. Something to get some damn income without the whole hassle of beating against the animation industry for a bit.

Contact information, past jobs, the usual. Until I get to page six.

DO YOU USE ALCOHOL? IF YES, DO YOU DRINK TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU WOULD BE PREVENTED FROM
PERFORMING THE ESSENTIAL FUNCTIONS OF THE JOB FOR WHICH YOU ARE APPLYING, WITH OR WITHOUT
REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION?                                           NO _______ YES ______

DESCRIBE FULLY __________________________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Back to normal things: what kind of schedule are you available for? Then...

CRIMINAL MATTERS
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN CONVICTED OF (OR PLED GUILTY OR NOLO CONTENDRE TO) A CRIME? (DO NOT
INCLUDE MARIJUANA-RELATED MISDEMEANOR CONVICTIONS OCCURING MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO OR
CONVICTIONS FOR WHICH THE CRIMINAL RECORD HAS BEEN EXPUNGED, SEALED OR ERADICATED BY THE COURT,
OR MISDEMEANOR CONVICTIONS FOR WHICH ANY PROBATION HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND THE CASE DISMISSED
BY THE COURT.)
                                                 NO ______ YES ______ NO. OF TIMES ______

DID THE CONVICTION(S) (OR GUILTY OR NOLO CONTENDRE PLEA) RESULT IN IMPRISONMENT?
                                                 NO ______ YES ______ NO. OF TIMES ______

EXPLAIN EACH CONVICTION (AND GUILTY OR NOLO CONTENDRE PLEA) FULLY. (A CONVICTION (OR GUILTY OR
NOLO CONTENDRE PLEA) WILL NOT NECESSARILY DISQUALIFY AN APPLICANT.) __________________________
______________________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________________________

HAVE YOU EVER COMMITTED A CRIME?  (DO NOT IDENTIFY USE OF MARIJUANA WHICH OCCURRED MORE THAN
TWO YEARS AGO, MARIJUANA-RELATED MISDEMEANOR CONVICTIONS OCCURRING MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO,
CONVICTIONS FOR WHICH THE CRIMINAL RECORD HAS BEEN EXPUNGED, SEALED OR ERADICATED BY THE COURT,
OR MISDEMEANOR CONVICTIONS FOR WHICH ANY PROBATION HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND THE CASE DISMISSED
BY THE COURT.)
                                                 NO ______ YES ______ NO. OF TIMES ______

IF YES, PLEASE STATE CIRCUMSTANCES. (COMMISSION OF A CRIME WILL NOT NECESSARILY DISQUALIFY AN
APPLICANT.) _________________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

ARE YOU CURRENTLY CHARGED WITH AN UNRESOLVED CRIMINAL CHARGE (A CHARGE WHICH HAS NOT YET
RESULTED IN A PLEA, TRIAL, OR A DROPPING OF THE CHARGE, OR FOR WHICH YOU ARE OUT ON BAIL OR ON YOUR
OWN RECOGNIZANCE PENDING TRIAL)?
                                                                        NO ______ YES ______
EXPLAIN FULLY. (A CHARGE WILL NOT NECESSARILY DISQUALIFY AN APPLICANT.) ____________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Then it goes back into the domain of sanity, with a place for military service, and references.

But then it goes back into crazy mode, with a bunch of statements an applicant must agree to, including this gem:

"I UNDERSTAND THAT, IF HIRED, AND DURING MY EMPLOYMENT, I SHALL ALWAYS GIVE PREFERENCE TO THIS
COMPANY'S BUSINESS. I FURTHER AGREE NOT TO USE OR DISCLOSE COMPANY TRADE SECRETS OR CONFIDENTIAL
OR PROPRIETARY INFORMATION TO ANYONE OUTSIDE THE COMPANY OR ANYONE WITHIN THE COMPANY WHO IS
NOT AUTHORIZED TO HAVE THE INFORMATION. I WILL NOT ENGAGE IN OTHER ACTIVITIES THAT CREATE A
CONFLICT OF INTEREST WITH MY POSITION WITH THE COMPANY UNLESS GIVEN PERMISSION IN WRITING BY THE
COMPANY."
                                                   ______ INITIALS

This is insane. xiaomimi, you work in an art store. Do y'all have a lot of problems with dangerous criminals applying? What kind of trade secrets can an art store have? I feel vaguely offended and insulted by all this... I've had mediocre jobs now and then, and none of them had a loyalty oath to sign! Swain's is creeping me out here.

[ Okay, comments suggest that I've just somehow managed to avoid this kind of business-as-usual paranoia shit in the past. I guess this is "Peggy Meets the 'Real' World". I just feel like asking all these questions carries an implicit assumption of the bad answers. And that being all-caps is either screaming, or lawyerese - neither of which I'm comfortable around. ]

Comments

[kittomer.livejournal.com]

Seems to be normal part of a work contract to me. Art store or not, you'd probably like to know if a convicted serial killer works for you. And even if that person lies, they can defend themselfs in court that they didn't know they had that criminal record, in case he goes nuts and kills a few pregnant single moms and babies. (Okay, might be a bit over the top, but it goes in that direction.)
Concerning the trade secrets, you never know what you get to know in a company. You might get to know about business plans your boss has. Deals that might be in comming. The industrial spionage stuff is everywhere. It might even be just for protection that you don't sell info to the press if your boss shags with Michael Jackson, or something.

Or maybe I'm just pulling that out of my ass. At any rate, I signed something similar, and I'm a machinist and drafter.

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'm just not used to this sort of lawyer cover-your-ass stuff, to being a minor drone in a corporation. In animation the application proces sis entirely based in your skills; hell, there wasn't anything I had any issue with in the contract for doing freelance for Disney... and my entire job history is a little bit of crappy grocery store cashier work, then animation.

I really just don't feel like this is appropriate to a job at a chain art store. Drug test authorization, background check authorization, loyalty oath, criminal record... would you like a DNA sample while you're at it?

But with Disney, you never handled money, inventory or the public..

[(Anonymous)]

What they're concerned about here is 1) employees stealing from the till, 2) employees who let merchandise "go missing" and 3) employees who go crazy and attack or otherwise abuse customers.

All legitimate concerns.

--%

[(Anonymous)]

I've never applied for a job that didn't have that kind of thing on it. The explicit exclusion of marijuana is curious -- that's about the only new thing on there.

The last paragraph isn't just to keep you from revealing the secrets of just how they keep the shelves looking so nice. That also gives them grounds to terminate you if you go and hand their price lists to a friend who's starting his own store, blab to the public that they're in the middle of an awkward lawsuit (as is too common for businesses today), that they're selling boxes of pencils which were dropped from a great height and they deemed to be okay even if you would have opened each and inspected, etc, etc.

It all seems pretty fair!

-- McGroarty

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

I've never run into this sort of thing before. It just feels paranoid to me... I guess animators are under a lot less corporate control than we think we are, or something!

My Experiences

[acertaindoebear.livejournal.com]

I've never worked in an office environment and all my work experience is canadian...

But I'm guessing it has to do with:

1) Everything being a moral issue (including drugs and work)

2) The fact that litigation in the States seems to be purdy high (The whole 'I'll sue' meme)

It could be just that that work doesn't know what they're doing. The same way that, say, someone who hasn't had a drink before will have all these crazy ideas about alcohol? Or how a certain government will have all these crazy ideas about drugs?

When I signed up to be an assistant Geologist all I had to give was my driver's liscence and my Social Insurance Number and the only form I had to sign was something that gave permission to cash my checks at the bank (including snail mail address). And this was for Cominco, a national mining company

[milkpanzer.livejournal.com]

That's a pretty standard application form. it's likely that they don't really care much about all that stuff but as employers they have to legally cover their asses.

There are actually a lot of 'trade secrets' in retail. It's not anything fancy though and not anything that couldn't be turned up with a bit of research. Customers (and occassionally competitors) want to know who the suppliers are. Customers think they'll get a better deal buying wholesale...which is stupid unless they plan on buying hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of product. But we have agreements with the wholesalers/distributors that we won't hand out that info causing them to be hassled by idiots wanting some sort of deal.

Competitors want to know who we deal with, what kind of deals we get, what our mark-up is, how business is doing, etc. This just isn't information to be shared, really. Not that most of it isn't pretty obvious, but still.

But mostly standard apps like that are just meant to CYA. There is a frighteningly huge amount of deep-down scary-freaky people out there applying for jobs and an app like that boondoogles a good percentage and even if they manage to fill it out and turn it in there are often crazy answers will give us a heads up.

Oh yeah...and art shops are total freak-beacons anyways. We are wary.

Sorry this reply is rambling and disjointed. I'm posting from the hiptop and my screen only shows a tiny bit of the reply window. >_

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

I guess I've just never had to fill out a "standard" application. I've been living in a weird world of freelanceish, casual stuff for most of my working life. Come in regularly and get the job done around the deadline, and get paid; the stuff you make for the company is theirs. Don't go telling anyone and everyone the intimate details of your projects 'til they're released.

The fact that it's all caps doesn't help, either. That's always a warning sign to me. THIS IS IMPORTANT AND WE ARE SHOUTING AT YOU. LEGALESE AHEAD IN WHICH WE ATTEMPT TO CLAIM YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO COMMON-SENSE RIGHTS. WE DEMAND YOU TELL US THESE THINGS.

And my instinctive reaction to the VOICE OF AUTHORITY kicks in: why do you want this, please give me some logic behind these pronouncements. I vaguely feel like giving away this much info and making these promises for a sales job is way too much. If this was a world where we had True Names, I feel like that'd be somewhere in the form, you know?

[ultraken.livejournal.com]

"Come in regularly and get the job done around the deadline, and get paid; the stuff you make for the company is theirs. Don't go telling anyone and everyone the intimate details of your projects 'til they're released."

That's pretty much standard for the game industry, especially that last part. It's been almost eight years since I filled one out for Activision, but I vaguely recall that being the gist of it. Game publishers are really big on the Non Disclosure Agreement, as it gives them leverage over the gaming press; game developers naturally follow along.

[higginsdragon.livejournal.com]

I find this sort of stuff amusing. Indeed, this stuff was common when I was applying for jobs a few months back. (The extra stuff about marijuana is a California thing only.) The thing is, the more "meanial" a job gets, stuff like retail, the more this stuff is seen. When I was in the computer industry, after an interview or two they'd give you an 60k a year job and that's that. Non-disclosure agreements were more common there, but that's it. None of this paranoia stuff or "personality tests."

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Yah. I'm fine with an NDA. I've had conversations with friends where an NDA comes up, and it's not a big deal at all "So what're you working on?" "Big license, NDA." "Oh, okay." And then maybe some dancing around the issue because they want to talk about it but don't want to Name the Name, and the implicit understanding that I'm not going to talk about details if I work it out.

But this... all these things to agree to, background checks, drug tests, company arbitration in the event of a dispute... it triggers reactions that most people my age have had beaten out of them by now, I guess. Feels like filling it all out and initialling acceptance of these various statements is giving away something important.

[holohedron.livejournal.com]

The extensive criminal background check is quite common -- I don't think I've applied to a retail job that didn't offer those questions.

I refuse to take a urine test, however. Even if I never do drugs, it's the subtle insinuation of "we own your body" that I find repugnant.

(of course, from what I've heard, everyone has their own personal gripe about these form applications... the upsetting part is that most will shrug and do them anyway. 'eugenic DNA testing? eh, it's not so bad, it's a job...')

[draca-serpens.livejournal.com]

When my dad went to work fixing RVs at RV America, they wanted photocopies of his social security card, driver's license, and birth certificate. When he refused, they gave him the weirdest looks, even though you're not supposed to (and the government confirms this) reproduce them by photocopying. }:P

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

*nod* Corporate policy trumps the laws! Really!

Heck, you're not supposed to use the Social Security number as a globally-unique identification number, either, but how many databases are you filed in with that as a unique key?

[kamenkyote.livejournal.com]

The constant exclusions of pot crimes I find...odd. I was really kind of wanked about that last paragraph, and then it hit me; art store, art students, or artists working there. They don't want you to put your own art schedule ahead of them, i.e. thinking you can wander off to do art fairs or classes at your convenience and not theirs.

When working for an ISP, I had to sign not only the non-disclosure thingie, but had to sign the "if I come up with any new ideas while working here they belong to the comapny" thingie as well. I don't know enough about computers to come up with anything they might find useful, but I did scribble out some art designs while at work, and I started wondering if they'd ever try to latch onto something like THAT. I suppose there's reason to think they would if they thought there was money in it. :P

-T'

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the marijuana one amused me. Kind of a tacit "okay, you're some kind of artist type and all artists are stoners" assumption or something. But the repetition of "HAVE YOU BEEN CONVICTED A CRIME? HAVE YOU COMMITTED A CRIME? ARE YOU A CRIMINAL? ARE YOU A CRIMINAL?" got my hackles up.

That sort of ideas-on-company-time-are-ours is why "Nightmare Before Christmas" came out via Disney, from what I've heard: Burton was developing it during his immense amounts of downtime on "Black Cauldron", and they got wind of him making deals to make the thing years later, found the evidence in the archived trash, and it was a Touchstone film because he'd signed that. I can halfway see the logic in it, but it's something I'd really be inclined to argue about before signing, nowadays. Even though it's The Way Things Are.

[nigel.livejournal.com]

I used to be in management for a few years (before it drove me insane), and I can tell you exactly why that sort of thing is included. An employer knows that you'll say anything on your application to get the job, so they include everything they can think of to get you to lie on the application somewhere. Why? Simple enough... In case they ever want to fire you, and you throw a stink about it, threaten to take them to court, etc... I've even had higher-up management types suggest to me that if I ever found myself in a situation like that after firing an employee, that I should just act like I know something I don't, and inform them calmly that they don't have a case, because they lied on their application. If they give you that wide-eyed "How did he find out about that?" look, then they're already in the clear. Granted, the owners I worked for seemed to engage in a higher degree of scuzz-baggery than most employers... Anyway, aside form the usual legal CYA stuff, from the employer's point of view, it's nice to have the option, even if you never act on it, I guess. I mean, if you find out something after you hire them and they've been a reliable employee, there's no reason you have to fire them...

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

...never mind that most people, if you accuse them of Being Bad, will immediately look guilty as they try to remember if they have.

I dunno, maybe I'm a naive idealist who hasn't had their barriers beaten down by a zillion job applications with language like that or something, but I feel like trying to entrap someone into a maybe-lie and assuming the worst possible cases is going to invite that: well, they already treat me like they expect me to engage in petty theft from the company, so I might as well get what I can...

[momentrabbit.livejournal.com]

I've not had a 'real job' that requested this sort of info. Ever.
I did, however, work at a video store once that had a 16-page Pinkerton's exam as part of the 'interview' that not only could see your art store's bid, raise, and call. At a video store, for crying out loud.

One question that remains stuck in my mind is (paraphrased) "You have a friend who's fallen on hard times. Your employment entitles you to a discount in the store cafeteria for personal use. Would you buy food for your friend using your discount?"

It was sorely tempting to ask "Is this testing whether I'm a criminal or a heartless jerk?"

[trikotomy.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, I've gotten things of that nature. Hundreds of questions, and each one prying, belittling, confusingly abstract, and/or tedious.

Some that I remember (with only minor exaggeration):

It is okay to take narcotics while at work...
a) Always b) Sometimes c) Never

Jim likes to take narcotics while at work. If you were Jim, would this be okay?
a) Yes b) No c) Maybe

Do you think about hurting customers?
a) Always b) Sometimes c) Maybe

A cashier at the supermarket has undercharged you $1 for your groceries. You don't realize this until you get home. The supermarket is a half hour away. Do you...
a) Return immediately and correct them b) Do nothing; supermarkets are big and it's okay to steal from them

Something falls on your foot. Do you get angry?
a) Yes b) No

There is a soda in the employee fridge that belongs to Steve. It has been there for 3 months and he probably forgot about it. You're very thirsty. If the soda falls on your foot, do you get angry?
a) Yes b) No

Bob is a kindly old man has worked at the same bank for 60 years. Bob has recently become very ill and cannot afford both medication and living expenses. You find out Bob has been stealing $20 a week from the bank to survive. Bob will retire tomorrow. Should Bob be fired?
a) Yes, he was stealing company assets b) No, I like criminals

If convicted, Bob will probably die in prison. Should Bob die?
a) Yes, he was stealing company assets b) No, I like criminals

[gealflings.livejournal.com]

*snickers*

[kinkyturtle.livejournal.com]

I can't help wondering what kind of idiot would fill one of those out with the "wrong" answers, even if he DOES sometimes think about hurting customers.

*blinkblink* if the SODA falls on your FOOT?! WHAT the?
...Is that one an exaggeration on your part or did it really SAY that?

[trikotomy.livejournal.com]

Exaggeration. :P There were plenty of questions in that vein where they'd try to throw you for a loop when they're really just re-asking the same question, but I couldn't recall them specifically. The rest are as accurate as I remember, if phrased (somewhat) more bluntly.

But yeah, they were almost all no-brainers, except for the abstract, psychological ones ("You look down and you see a tortoise, Leon... (http://www.trussel.com/bladerun.htm)").

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

And the dilemma becomes - do you answer these the way your instinct tells you to, or do you pick the obvious "right" answer?

[turbinerocks.livejournal.com]

I like Jim. :D

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

*shudder* You win. If that can be called winning.

Man, I so do not want to think about filling out more nosy own-your-soul applications like this one. I haven't even finished filling this one out because of my instinctive "this is too damn much" reaction.

I guess the more meaningless and dulling the job is, the more hooks they want to make sure you're a good little cog.

[defenbaugh.livejournal.com]

Hate to say it. But Ive worked every sort of job under the sun and almost ALWAYS see those clauses.

Particularly the last one. Its so you dont work at a buisness long enough how to run one, then go start some competition.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

Course, if you've floated through several buisnesses, you'll know this is bull, as many of them all run the same. Therefore either a person with the experince of another company has conformed that company to the previous standard, or they are all stealing from each other.

I mean, how else can you explain the Volcano/Dante's Peak -- Armegeddon/Final Impact syndrom that comes from hollyweird? People are stealing from each other all the time. The hard part is proving it.

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Hell, it's so vague it could mean anything. "Give preference to this company's business". Does that mean I won't buy my art supplies anywhere else while I work there? Or that their needs always take priority over mine, whatever the time and place? Soooo ambiguous.

Giving over all this information and vague promises like that feels like a submission they simply haven't earned!

[silverblue.livejournal.com]

I've never, ever seen that here. However, I had to fill out something on my Dentists application which annoyed the fuck out of me.

1) Are you gay or bisexual?

Later on...

11) Do you have AIDs or are you an AIDs risk? If you ticked yes to 1) YOU MUST TICK YES HERE.

And all I thought was...'fuckers'.

[maui.livejournal.com]

...Wow. That's amazingly irritating. >:o

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, because AIDS is the Gay Plague. Really. *snarl*

Forms are so wonderfully depersonalizing and accusative, aren't they?

[mutleyjames.livejournal.com]

Yup. I've had that at the dentists over here too.
There was also a box to tick - if your father was bisexual that you were also part of the high risk group.
That day I put the onus on dad. He'd be proud.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

Hmms. Sound's like they're affiliated with the Red Cross. Only the Red Cross, in a Blood Crisis, will refuse to take someone's blood cause they're not straight. Geesh.

[turbinerocks.livejournal.com]

We have problems with dangerous criminals applying for my health care gig...they do a background check and everything.

[(Anonymous)]

Just a random lurker who reads your journal.

My first real job ("real" defined as having to fill out a w-4 and get a w-2 at the end of the year) was as a temporary/seasonal cashier at the university bookstore. Take a governor's oath of office, fill in your name, substitute "cashier" for "office of governor" and you have one of the things I had to sign. Turns out back-to-school-rush cashiering is a government job!

The "I will give preference to $EMPLOYER company" thing raises a couple red flags with me. But on the other hand, my current CSR job doesn't allow us to mention the name's of our competitors. If we do, and that call is being monitored by corporate, the call is marked as failed.

carlhh over on hotmail

[waterotter.livejournal.com]

Things are a little different in Oregon. For the most part, we're an "at-will employment" state, which means that employers don't have to give a reason to fire an employee. In fact, they usually won't, because if they DO give a reason, it has to be a valid one. Because there's no need for excuses to fire bad employees, you can easily tell by the application if it was written in Oregon or not. The ones made up in national corporate headquarters have those huge lists of questions. Ones made up in Oregon tend to be a little more like:
Is there a warrant out for your arrest right now?
If so, how long do you think you can work before they catch you?

[chirik.livejournal.com]

Like everyone else has mentioned, as insane as this sounds, this is actually pretty standard, but a couple things on here seemed unusual, even considering that...

Have you ever committed a crime? Not been convicted, but at all? I've not heard of that being asked before. Do they seriously want to know every single time you've broken a law? If so, for the average California resident, that list should start something like:

'[Y] Number of times: Many; Explain: CVC CVC 22351(b), CVC 22356(b), CVC 22348(b), CVC 22405(a)...'

(For those curious, those are speeding violations I came up with in a quick search ... exceeding basic speed laws, exceeding 70mph, exceeding 100mph, exceeding the speed limit on a tunnel or bridge) Well, maybe the average person hasn't exceeded 100mph, but many do, so it'd still be common.

As for giving preference to them ... that sounds a little too personal ... it's one thing to ask sales people, while on the job, to show preference (ie - not suggesting buying from a competetitor, or asking you to wear clothes sold by the store, if it's a clothing store) but when off the clock, that's intruding a little much... but what do they mean by that one, too? Companies figure they own you 24 hours a day once they hire you, nowadays. :-/

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it's typical, but I'm not surprised. As everyone else seems to say, it is. I see it as further evidence that once you are a convicted criminal, you're pretty much forced back into a life of crime because you can't get a regular job, even if you wanted.