boys as girls; girls as boys

[egypturnash]

Chasing random links, the things you run across...

Here's an interesting article on cross-gender play in online games, from the point of view of a female wondering... why is it that you don't see too much in the way of FtM cross-play?

[ addendum: As comments have pointed out, and as I realized myself, you do see FtM cross-play online. But nobody ever writes about it. It's scandalous to imagine that that elven gal might have a cock iRL but somehow it's cute when it turns out the burly he-man has a girl behind the keys... ]

More from the perspective of MMORPGs than the social/RP mucking I'm used to, and she only does it for a single day, but it's interesting. I mean, I can't imagine playing a male character any more, when given the choice. My initial reasons for genderbending online were mixed, and part of why I initially stuck with it, on the surface, was that it's just more "fun" to be female, socially - a grumpy guy gets kinda ignored, people try to raise a grumpy gal's spirits.

I'm not sure I agree with her conclusions (be sure to read the second half of it, where she looks over her day-o-man-gaming and compares with her two years of girl gaming on the same MMORPG), but... I dunno. Something to think about. I'm quite aware I'm currently in a space where I'll always prefer a female identity to a male one, because of the effort I'm going through to push that away from who I am; I kinda need to be damn sure I'm playing a role as a male character, and not backsliding.

---

I've found myself disinterested in video games recently for a number of overlapping reasons - too broke to buy them, sameness in what's out there, my priorities changing at many levels as I change. But the site this is on is still kinda interesting to delve through; it's an attempt at some serious thinking about video and computer games...

Comments

[pathia.livejournal.com]

It's been my experience that there is quite alot of it, it's just that much harder to tell.

I'll be the first to admit it, it's alot easier to play a guy, than a girl. Guys are just so much....simpler.

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I think it may also be that she's writing from a MMORPG perspective. Most of the girls I know of who RP online are textual. And you get girls playing male characters to get away form the attention.

The really interesting point she makes is that most articles you see on cross-play are MtF - why? though she doesn't really theorize about it. Maybe because it's somehow more "scandalous"?

I find it harder to play a guy. I was never very good at it, online or iRL...

[pathia.livejournal.com]

As for why guys play females in MMORPG's, I honestly think there's a very simple answer.

Most games are 3rd person.

Guys would rather stare at a chick's ass all day, than some big barbarian. It's the reason why all the guys in my linkshell in FFXI play mithra (the kitty girls) or elf chicks.

I do think your thought of MtF playing being scandalous intruiging. But I find it funny that's it is never 'scandalous' when there is no choice but to play a female lead. Like say FFX-2, Metroid or Tomb Raider.

[postrodent.livejournal.com]

Also, girls, especially in the semiotically enriched environment of videogames, get most of the cool clothes. The steel bikini and variations thereof that seem to appear on most female FPS characters are crassly objectifying, sure, but the males are typically swaddled in armorplate to the point of dehumanization.

[doodlesthegreat.livejournal.com]

There's something about having a meat and two veg that reduces decision trees to a short set of yes/no questions.

[neogeen.livejournal.com]

My roomie and at at college always enjoy trying to out-masculine each other. We crossplay sometimes when we hit the clubs.
I don't know, I just really find it fun and enjoyable and slightly strange that I make a better guy then a girl ;>, I mean, I get hit on by so many girls it's silly.

Maybe the girls that do it just never speak about it? I had the hardest time hiding my breasts, but then again on a rainy day when I wear my hoodie I look masculine x_X;

[pathia.livejournal.com]

I can't help but comment on this irony. We were the first two comments and what do we do?

I'm a guy that MtF's and you're a girl that FtM's.

[xiombarg.livejournal.com]

I don't know anything about online play, but I've encountered a lot of women in face-to-face, tabletop roleplaying (and even LARP) that preferred to play males exclusively, and/or had played a male character in the past. Ususually this seemed to be, on a social level, a way to designate one's self as "one of the guys" and not a sexual object.

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

I'd figure people are less likely to help guys, less likely to forgive guys, and more likely to ignore guys. Based on my experience. Must read and see what hers is.

[chipuni.livejournal.com]

Huh. Some RL ladies strongly prefer to play males in chat-zones, to get away from constantly being hit on -- and to be taken seriously. Others that I know of play 'fluffs' -- asexuals.

[403.livejournal.com]

Others that I know of play 'fluffs' -- asexuals.

An interesting note is that from what I've seen the players of gender-neutral characters tend to be assumed to be male, without evidence beyond speech patterns in either direction.

[apoidea.livejournal.com]

Half my UO characters were male. I eventually started playing my male theif more than my original female warrior because the profession was more fun. A female friend of mine had male mule characters but didn't play them as much. I think alot of women are addicted to getting attention for being female on morpgs

I used to have about half of my RPG characters be male, but I stopped because it freaked people out if they did something unmanly

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

That icon scares me. Yipes. Yikes yikes yikes.

Yeah, you certainly get more social juice when you play a female character, in my experience.

What I find interesting is that, while there's a lot of FtM crossplay online, when I sit and think about it, nobody ever writes about it - most of the stuff I see about crossplay, as more people become exposed toit through things like MMORPGs, is about MtF play, not FtM. It's like it's kinda cute when a woman wears a man shirt, but if a man does anything distinctly womanly, kill the fag...

I dunno. Gender is weird.

[postrodent.livejournal.com]

I'm flashing back to a commercial for deodorant soap a few years ago that challenged gender difference. Among the images they used was of a figure in a work shirt, chinos, sort of puffy newsboy hat tilted low to obscure the face. Then the hat lifted and there was a (blonde, white, petite) woman beneath. That went down fine. A feminine figure in a nice dress seen from behind, and when the camera pans it's Viggo Mortensen? Unthinkable, and the next LOTR film would tank. I don't get it. It's not like highly martial, "masculine" cultures haven't had long traditions of crossdressing among males. Maybe it's the bombardment of idealized hypermasculine/hyperfeminine media images?

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I really don't have any answers, just the observation that this is the way males are taught to react to crossing the gender boundaries. One man's choice to act less than manly somehow threatens another man's machismo.

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

Scary, scary eyes.

[gen.livejournal.com]

I roleplay a lot on my muck (www.twisted-kingdoms.com if you're curious) and easily 2/3rds of my PCs are male. Really it's environment dependant I think. Like on EQ, females are going to be a bit more physically striking.

As to why I personally prefer playing guys over girls... I suppose it's sexist and stereotypical, but there's certain aspects of 'guy-ishness' that I like to play. And you know, it's not so much even the macho thing... It's playing out how society expects men to ask. As someone who can only really experience that in role play I find it fascinating. Plus I like to balance out things. For awhile my player base was largely women, so it was good to have some men on the grid.

But then again, I'm also a bit of a tomboy.

[rowyn]

For awhile my player base was largely women, so it was good to have some men on the grid.

Come to think of it, I do that, too. If there are a lot of female characters around, I'm more inclined to play a male. I created Cyprian as male specifically to play off Elise, for example.

In "Just Trust Me", by contrast, I deliberately flip-flopped both Leigh's gender and ethnicity: she was originally William Leigh, a white male. When I realized that EVERYONE in the game was playing white guys (PC and other NPCs alike!) I switched plans to buck the trend.

My PCs are usually female, however. I never played a male character in EQ or in City of Heroes. (Though I've thought a couple of times of making a male character in CoH). Played a couple of male characters on FurryMUCK, though. I think my NPC ratio is much closer to 50-50, though.

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

I definately like doing the opposite of what everyone tends to do.

My selection varies. All my FurryMuck chars are female now, though a couple started male. Diablo 2, I selected for class, getting two guys: Khodpeace and Korskha, and three girls: Yoyoknickers, Metropussy, GonnaBiteit(Hardcore). Quake 3, usually the stock femme char Slash, but occasionally the HellChick because she looked a little like Paenitia. THERE, tried to get both, was only allowed Sasta, and she always is the first into a new electronic communications medium. CoH, thinking mostly of re-visiting Paenitia, so obviously a femme devil.

In tabletop, mostly male. I think Paenitia has been the first femme I've played in a longtime tabletop. LARPS, male, obviously. Actually, my obsession has been more with playing felines, because the flamboyancy is a lot of fun. Like every game system I've been in, I've tried to have a cat.

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

*nod* I suspect the demographics of people reading my journal, in terms of gender/identity play, are different from the norm - anyone with serious problems with gender-blurring is not likely to be following the thoughts of a transsexual!

It'd be interesting to see some stats on how much cross-play is going on in environments that're pitched to more 'mainstream' audiences versus the always-fringey world of text RP.

[milkpanzer.livejournal.com]

My reason I never (successfully) played a male online...

Boys are icky.

Just in general, I mean. I found if I played the sort of guy I really prefer I might as well have just stuck with playing a girl.

I've also moved away from the severe 'tomboyishness' of my youth and I'm no longer really nervous to play 'cute'. Okay, lately it's been pretty asexual 'cute' but cute nonetheless.

As far as graphical games...the females tend to be nicer to look at anyway. ^^

[amarafox.livejournal.com]

Dude. I'm sure I'll become the latest 'OMG PREVERT' canon fodder here, but I do the whole genderbendy thing.

Even when I was a kid I was a male character. Right now I rarely shift out of my male form on Taps, and my new shadowrun character will be male. I'd play a male in tabletop if I was allowed to.

And there lies a little glimpse into my brain that most people don't get :D

I have little desire to change my outward appearance IRL, though. I'm sure you'd totally kick my pants on the feminine thing, though ;)

[applefish.livejournal.com]

wow. agreed 100%.

[perlandria.livejournal.com]

I think we are just less noticable. In English, male is the assumed pronoun gender - yannow?

[furikudanji.livejournal.com]

Heh. I play a male on most all of my game-things that I do. And I do the social/RP type of gaming. Hell, the game I play on, The Santharian Dream, was rather convinced I actually was a guy, until I showed them my art site :P Then again, it's kinda typical for characters there to be gender-switched, in fact, most people have like.. 6 characters or so, about half male and half female. You can't ever really tell who is what gender unless you meet them outside of the roleplay forum.

I don't know to what extent people find me "cute" because I roleplay men. They vary in masculinity. The only time I played a female and she was very masculine - I think it's because I have this strange misogyny deep inside of me, and I just feel more free playing a male. I would join the local LARP group, but they don't allow crossgender playing.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

For the most part, the reason I feel that you don't see many FTM players (Not that I haven't occasionally run into that FTM charecter that that's way so she can play a gay guy (What, that's never happened to you?)) is because women don't have the need to.

Women, for the most part, have been seperated from gender roles, as of the women's liberation a century ago. Even though some people try to deny it, many women pretty much feel comftrable as themselves in a masculine or feminine role. Men, on the other hand, have a much harder time being able to flip flop between these roles, hence, they create female charecters.

In MMORPG, all bets really are off, as most of them don't seem to offer enough social contact to really matter, but this is what I feel to be true.

[higginsdragon.livejournal.com]

Women, for the most part, have been seperated from gender roles, as of the women's liberation a century ago.

Well, women's lib was only about 30-35 years ago. And from my experience, those who are comfortable with themselves and are on equal levels socially with men are still in the minority. It may have been fixed for the most part in the workplace, but with interpersonal interactions, roles are still quite seperately defined.

Personally, I wish both women and men were on absolutely equal footing in all regards. Maybe in a few more decades, maybe never. I dunno.

[postrodent.livejournal.com]

It goes back way further than that. It's not like a bunch of guys decided to give women the vote, because gosh darn it it just wasn't fair that the girls were disenfranchised. :>

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

Well, women's lib was only about 30-35 years ago.

Well, according to my history books that I remember, it was back in the 1920's... so I probably am wrong, overall.

Also, I am not completely convinced of that the traditional roles have not opened up, as my experinces show very aggressive traits among women of my generation.

However, I do agree with you. I wish everyone was equal in all regards. Despite what the PE teachers preach, I am sure in another thirty years, it'll be true.

[higginsdragon.livejournal.com]

I suppose it's just a technicality. :) "Suffrage" was before 1920, women getting the right to vote, which was long overdue still. (The movement started in the mid 1800's.) What's commonly termed as "women's lib" started in the late 60's/early 70's as a rejection of the roles women had post-WWII. Equality in the workplace and socially, rather than just voting. Though I can definitely see it as beginning back when women were getting the right to vote. Slightly different agendas and terms.

Regarding roles, they're more open indeed. However, at least when it comes to, say, relationships, the majority of the time the guy is still expected to do most of the work; to earn the attention above and beyond just being themselves. At least in my experience. It's just an imbalance I see between the benefits of genders, probably due to my shy and submissive nature. The popularity of books like The Rules (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446602744/qid=1087345796/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-7459873-6510331?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) seems to indicate that a fair number of women prefer it that way, and to be honest, I don't blame them.

I'll admit, I know many women who are agressive about what they like and what they want, and they're great friends. I just wish they still weren't in the minority. :)

[higginsdragon.livejournal.com]

it's just more "fun" to be female, socially - a grumpy guy gets kinda ignored, people try to raise a grumpy gal's spirits.

You got a very good point, actually. A guy doesn't even have to be grumpy really, they're just ignored by default. :) And the writer's experiences in the game seem to reflect that. Online games, both MMPORGS and to a greater extent, mucks, echo life in that respect. A guy needs to 'beat his chest', either intellectually or verbally, in order to get noticed by other guys. A woman is noticed just by being present. I've seen it happen at parties and gatherings. When a few girls are there, most of the guys heads are pretty much turned towards them, listening to their every word no matter what they're saying with rapt attention.

A while back I used to play a female character or two online, and there is a noticable contrast. If I were to walk into a public place, there'd be a dozen glances, several greetings, and a few whispers (from both genders). Before I even said more than two words. When I'm just myself as a guy, I can walk into a place, do my greetings, and then for all intents and purposes I can idle out and nobody would notice. Of course, these are broad, and there are exceptions. But, those were my experiences. Being a woman definitely increases sociability.

Personally, I just notice cute. A guy, a girl, it don't matter. Cute is cute and it's what stands out to me. Gender gives me a headache, truth be told.

[dsch.livejournal.com]

I've done text-based online RPGs (MUCKs, MOOs, etc) for several years now, and almost all of my characters have been male. My very first character was female, but that's because I was new to the game and figured it would be easiest to write a desc directly based on my own appearance. But even then, the character was never girly. Since then, I have enjoyed playing my male characters more, and they have been my most likeable characters. I haven't created a new female character in ages, and probably won't again. But then again, I suppose I hardly count as a "girl"!

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Not exactly the standard case! See below for my thoughts on that...

[dsch.livejournal.com]

(Whoa! Now I see what you meant about the weird popup comment box thingy! But it says I can pick my picture.)

Aaanyway...yeah, that's how I think about it now. Playing a male character isn't cross-anything, but when I created my first male characters, I wasn't strongly identifying that way yet. I've really only become certain about how I feel in the past few months.

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

(They're working on improving the popup comment box, and providing an off switch. Me, I'm hoping they go with adding a 'quick comment' link to the right of the old 'reply to this' one... which I'm told was the original implementation proposal. It actually works that way.)

It feels weird to even think about playing a male character right now. Everyone would probably read him as utterly gay. Even without the cue of me hanging around in a male-male oriented area.

[ghostangel.livejournal.com]

I think I may very well be the exception here, as an FTM that does male role-play, and not just a female that does it. Why? I don't know, I feel uncomfortable playing a girl (though I now play a girl on FairyLand, go fig. But shes my first). I even during my early internet days, completely identified as male and played the part down to making up stories. I'm not sure :/

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Well... for an FtM, playing a man online is not cross-play. It's cross-play to play a woman if you're firmly identified as male, regardless of what may be between your legs now or at birth. Playing a female character started as cross-play for me, but it's not any more.

[gen.livejournal.com]

I thought I'd do a follow up on this. The scene itself may prove to be uninteresting really, but it pretty much sums up why I find playing men so fascinating...

(Some info... I'm Peter, Azure is an elf that has the ability to enter and tweak people's dreams. They just dreamed about having sex (off camera... I find implied acts more titillating than the real thing, oddly) and Peter's trying to work out his feelings on the matter. His wife recently left him rather abruptly, and it just has a lot of complicating factors...)

---

Azure giggles against you, pulling you close for a tight squeeze before moving reluctantly away. "I should clean up a bit. I'll meet you out on the balcony?" And, yes, that plain open window is gone and so is the rest of the cozy little room, replaced by a fairly posh hotel room with a sliding glass door.

Peter makes a face, but rolls over onto his stomach and folds his arms under his chin. "Don't use up all the hot water," He grins at you, strokes your cheek and crosses his ankles, just watching you with doting eyes.

Azure slides out of bed and just stands there a moment, watching you and meeting your eyes before gazing quickly down at her own body, as if trying to see what you see. "Am I so beautiful, Peter?"

Peter smiles a little more. "Yes. I think that's an advantage of being human. A little more shy about showing skin... Makes you appreciate it more when you get to see it. Like a gourmet meal or something."

Azure blushes just faintly as she grins at you, then disappears into the expansive bathroom. "You're welcome to join me," she calls, her voice echoing off the marble, "but I think you'll like the view out there, too."

Peter sits up a little and digs through the nightstand. He pulls out a pack of clove cigarettes and lights one with a cheap plastic lighter as he hunts around for his clothes. "If I go in there we'll never make it to the balcony."

The sound of rushing water starts up in the bathroom, and soon a few wisps of steam escape the shower to hover near the ceiling of the marbled dressing area. The room looks vaguely familiar to you. You probably stayed here on one of your many business trips. Your clothes and other belongings, however, are nowhere to be found.

Peter drags a pillow into his lap and settles against the edge of the bed and trying not to burn any holes in the pillow. He sits there, lost in thought as he smokes, wondering how much of this is just his mind, and how much is real.

The more you look around, the more you can be fairly convinced you pulled this place from your memory. So many hotels and so many cities, though, that in and of itself, the room has no significance to you. The water shuts off, and your lover soon emerges. Her hair is damp, and she's dressed only in one of your white oxford shirts, buttoned just enough to stay on. It covers her down to her thighs.

Peter puts his cigarette out and gets up, a little distracted now. "Not noisy enough to be Japan, maybe Italy... Doesn't smell like Bombay... or hell, could be California." He brushes past you on his way to the shower.

Gold fixtures and Italian marble. A shower stall as well as a large sunken tub that gives you ideas for later. Wherever this place is, it's the top of the line... but of course, if you stayed here in your prime, it would be.

"Could be California... Hell, they all looked the same after awhile," he mumbles to himself as he turns the water on, just splashing enough to get the dirt and sweat off. He exits quickly, towels off, and hunts around for something to wear.

---

You may find the whole exchange boring, but really for me the thing that makes it is how he's trying to act casual while his mind's a mess, he's fighting with his feelings for Azure, and he's babbling in his head to sound like he's focused on something else entirely.

Peter has issues, but they're sort of male emotional issues and it's interesting to play that mindset. Hiding the fact that he's lonely and confused by acting disinterested, or just getting caught up in his thoughts and closing up on the outside. Mind you, they're not EXCLUSIVELY male issues, but hopefully I'm close enough that I can at least pass it off.

Ahem. Anyway. Just thought I'd share.